Wherein we discuss scripted events which are broadcast over analog and digital channels.

Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby deadairis » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 4:32am

The 'Box team is nuts for thinking otherwise.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby IRL_Troll » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 5:03am

I respect your humble opinion, however I......wholeheartedly agree
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby LiQuid » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 8:55am

This thread is full of fucking trolls. Jesse is the reason I haven't watched the last dozen+ episodes of Burn Notices.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 9:21am

deadairis wrote:The 'Box team is nuts for thinking otherwise.


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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby IRL_Troll » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 9:26am

LiQuid wrote:This thread is full of fucking trolls. Jesse is the reason I haven't watched the last dozen+ episodes of Burn Notices.


NO, U!
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Bobloblaw » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 12:31pm

deadairis wrote:The 'Box team is nuts for thinking otherwise.


What?

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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby LiQuid » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 1:02pm

IRL_Troll wrote:
LiQuid wrote:This thread is full of fucking trolls. Jesse is the reason I haven't watched the last dozen+ episodes of Burn Notices.


NO, U!

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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby deadairis » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 2:23pm

I do actually like Jesse -- skilled, not there just to serve Michael, let's them do bigger schemes -- but I'll be honest, this thread is already Epic.
Let the horror-gifs flow.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 3:55pm

Whether you like Jesse or not, you have to admit that he represents the show jumping the shark. The old formula of the show was clearly getting stale and they threw in an additional cast mate to spice things up. And for that reason alone, Jesse sucks. Most shows don't know how to quit while they're ahead and Burn Notice is clearly one of them.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby deadairis » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 5:32pm

I really don't think that expanding and building on a show's core premise -- lies, trust, a compelling central character who's all about that, and big A-Team style stunts -- qualifies as "jumping the shark."

First episode of season 4 was closer to it --
Spoiler: show
Globe-trotting! Drone attacks! Stunt cameo casting!
-- but I don't think growth and chnage of cast or concept means jumping the shark. A show can jtc by adding things in to spice up a formula; it can jtc by refusing to change when a concept has become a mere conceit.

They're slopping more and more paint down to avoid admitting they've painted themselves into a corner -- namely, that the show is called Burn Notice but Michael should really be un-burned at this point -- but I like the corner. They're doing fun stuff with it.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 6:18pm

kenzo wrote:Whether you like Jesse or not, you have to admit that he represents the show jumping the shark. The old formula of the show was clearly getting stale and they threw in an additional cast mate to spice things up. And for that reason alone, Jesse sucks. Most shows don't know how to quit while they're ahead and Burn Notice is clearly one of them.


TV shows shouldn't have a formula to follow. All of my favorite shows have surprised me in some way at some point and formulaic shows can't do that.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 6:34pm

deadairis wrote:I really don't think that expanding and building on a show's core premise -- lies, trust, a compelling central character who's all about that, and big A-Team style stunts -- qualifies as "jumping the shark."

First episode of season 4 was closer to it --
Spoiler: show
Globe-trotting! Drone attacks! Stunt cameo casting!
-- but I don't think growth and chnage of cast or concept means jumping the shark. A show can jtc by adding things in to spice up a formula; it can jtc by refusing to change when a concept has become a mere conceit.

They're slopping more and more paint down to avoid admitting they've painted themselves into a corner -- namely, that the show is called Burn Notice but Michael should really be un-burned at this point -- but I like the corner. They're doing fun stuff with it.
Jumping the shark doesn't have to necessarily be a bad thing - a show can still be entertaining on certain levels after having jumped the shark. Star Trek: Voyager was entertaining after adding Seven of Nine, and was in a lot of ways better for it. But doing something as drastic as changing the core cast is always an admission that "things as they are now simply isn't enough." If things were enough, they wouldn't feel the need to pay another actor big bucks. It's not quite as tacky of a way to jump the shark like resorting to stupid spectacles like the Fonz jumping a shark... but it is an admission that things are getting stale.

Mr_eX wrote:TV shows shouldn't have a formula to follow. All of my favorite shows have surprised me in some way at some point and formulaic shows can't do that.
Name me a scripted television show that doesn't follow a formula.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 26th, 2011 @ 6:43pm

Disclaimer: I also like Jesse, but I like the idea of Jesse more than his actual implementation so far. They could do a lot more interesting scenarios with him, and have some interesting play between the characters. But the nonsense like the sexual-tension between Fiona and Jesse was awful and forced.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 27th, 2011 @ 9:04pm

kenzo wrote:
Mr_eX wrote:TV shows shouldn't have a formula to follow. All of my favorite shows have surprised me in some way at some point and formulaic shows can't do that.
Name me a scripted television show that doesn't follow a formula.


Spartacus
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby LiQuid » Feb 27th, 2011 @ 10:32pm

Tits and violence isn't formulaic?
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 27th, 2011 @ 10:37pm

Mr_eX wrote:
kenzo wrote:Name me a scripted television show that doesn't follow a formula.
Spartacus
You're not helping your case here.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 7:04am

kenzo wrote:
Mr_eX wrote:
kenzo wrote:Name me a scripted television show that doesn't follow a formula.
Spartacus
You're not helping your case here.


Mad Men?
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 12:47pm

Mad Men is maddeningly formulaic. One of these things is bound to happen in each new episode:
-Someone gets drunk at the office
-Someone smokes a cigarette in an inopportune time (by today's standards and morals)
-Don pitches a new sales campaign
-Don sleeps with a woman that's not his wife
-There are two or three references to (at the time) current events to make us remember, "oh yeah, this is the 60s and not my fantasy job."
-Someone says something racist or sexist.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 12:59pm

kenzo wrote:Mad Men is maddeningly formulaic. One of these things is bound to happen in each new episode:
-Someone gets drunk at the office
-Someone smokes a cigarette in an inopportune time (by today's standards and morals)
-Don pitches a new sales campaign
-Don sleeps with a woman that's not his wife
-There are two or three references to (at the time) current events to make us remember, "oh yeah, this is the 60s and not my fantasy job."
-Someone says something racist or sexist.



Those are so minor they're hardly worth pointing out. Burn Notice is like A + B + C = D with A, B, and D being constants and only C changes each week but with no effect on anything.

Lost wasn't formulaic either.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 1:06pm

Mr_eX wrote:Lost wasn't formulaic either.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 1:08pm

kenzo wrote:
Mr_eX wrote:Lost wasn't formulaic either.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


I don't think you know what a formula is. Every episode had flashbacks, thats not a formula as much as it is a characteristic of the show.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 1:16pm

Every episode focused on one character. And we'd watch them do shit on the island for a bit, spliced with flashback footage. It was the same for EVERY EPISODE OF THE SHOW. How is that not formulaic?
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 1:30pm

kenzo wrote:Every episode focused on one character. And we'd watch them do shit on the island for a bit, spliced with flashback footage. It was the same for EVERY EPISODE OF THE SHOW. How is that not formulaic?


I think we're talking about different things. You're talking about show structure and I'm talking about plot.

Also, Tales from the Crypt was not formulaic.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 1:37pm

Aren't they the same thing? If you have a rigid show structure, you're only ever going to be able to tell the same kind of stories over and over again thanks to that structure.

Tales of the Crypt was formulaic as hell. Crypt Keeper rolls up, is like "dude, I gots a story." They show some odd number of minutes of some stupid "horror" story that all end with the same dumb twists, and the Crypt Keeper is like, "LOL! That was pretty scary, huh? I'll get you next week too!"
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 1:48pm

kenzo wrote:Aren't they the same thing? If you have a rigid show structure, you're only ever going to be able to tell the same kind of stories over and over again thanks to that structure.

Tales of the Crypt was formulaic as hell. Crypt Keeper rolls up, is like "dude, I gots a story." They show some odd number of minutes of some stupid "horror" story that all end with the same dumb twists, and the Crypt Keeper is like, "LOL! That was pretty scary, huh? I'll get you next week too!"


So you're telling me that the plot of the pilot episode of Lost is pretty much the same as the plot of The Constant?

I don't think you remember much about Tales from the Crypt.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby deadairis » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 4:29pm

Kenzo -- just like someone saying that since you "play" the "role" of a bald space marine, bald space marine shooters are all role-playing games, you're over-expanding a term based on a false, overly-literal and overly-expansive definition. Thematic elements and structure aren't the same as formulaic. In short, if by your definition *every* scripted show is formulaic, your definition isn't a useful tool for the discussion of scripted shows.
And since jumping the shark has explicit negative connotations, I don't think that any expansion of a show's thesis, cast, or formula means it's jumped the shark. Change does not, by default, mean a show has jumped the shark.
Jumping the shark is when the show has finally gone too far in its quest to stay just right.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 5:43pm

deadairis wrote:And since jumping the shark has explicit negative connotations


I don't know, jumping the shark can be pretty awesome
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Lopsidedown » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 6:17pm

^ That show still blows my mind
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby kenzo » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 7:25pm

deadairis wrote:In short, if by your definition *every* scripted show is formulaic, your definition isn't a useful tool for the discussion of scripted shows.
I never claimed that it was a useful tool for disusing scripted shows - if anything, I claimed quite the opposite.

deadairis wrote:And since jumping the shark has explicit negative connotations, I don't think that any expansion of a show's thesis, cast, or formula means it's jumped the shark. Change does not, by default, mean a show has jumped the shark.
There's a difference in expanding a show's thesis/cast/formula, and then outright changing it because the previous one is growing stale. I'd argue that adding Jesse has represented a significant change rather than just an expansion.

deadairis wrote:Jumping the shark is when the show has finally gone too far in its quest to stay just right.
The problem with that definition is that it's defined in a completely subjective manner, meaning there's no easy or objective way to come to a consensus over what represents a "jumping the shark" or if that's actually bad.

I mentioned Star Trek: Voyager earlier because for a lot of people, the introduction of Seven of Nine is arguably a "jumping the shark" moment. For a lot of people, she represented the show selling out, giving into base sex appeal, and betraying the Star Trek's core emphasis of exploration - it went too far. But there are plenty of fans who actually enjoyed her character, the new subsequent story arcs that came as result, and that don't really see her being a betrayal of the franchise since Star Trek has a long history of being risque (TOS was crazy for the time). In scenarios like that and Jesse, there's no real consensus to be had other than the fact that those two characters inherently changed the thesis/cast/formula of their respective shows in a significant and polarizing manner. There's nothing to really argue about besides whether or not you liked that change.
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Re: Jesse is an awesome Burn Notice addition.

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 28th, 2011 @ 7:31pm

kenzo wrote:
deadairis wrote:Jumping the shark is when the show has finally gone too far in its quest to stay just right.
The problem with that definition is that it's defined in a completely subjective manner, meaning there's no easy or objective way to come to a consensus over what represents a "jumping the shark" or if that's actually bad.


Adding a character is not the same as jumping the shark. Jumping the shark is usually something that is so ridiculous(in the context of that series) that no one can take the show seriously ever again after seeing it.

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