Wherein we discuss scripted events which are broadcast over analog and digital channels.

Re: The Flash

Postby RedPanda77 » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 10:35am

kenzo wrote:
RedPanda77 wrote:Also why is Iris black?
Better question is, "Why shouldn't Iris be black?"


Because she was never black in the comics, believe it or not Wally is the Ginger superhero to a lot of people and now they have . . . ? Not to mention that a young black male is subject to a very different socialization than what a young white male would undertake in middle America.

They can't just do a Mortal Kombat palette swap, its like making him a different person.
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Re: The Flash

Postby CrossXhunteR » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 11:00am

Because she isn't/wasn't.
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Re: The Flash

Postby darfox8 » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 11:07am

Are you arguing that they can't make a character black without putting in storylines about them being black? Would that annoy you if one episode Iris comments about beauty standards or if Joe has a long sordid past with racism in the police?

They didn't make these characters black to further an agenda but just in case they did(seems like a worst case scenario for a lot of nerds) so what if they make the characters and heroes more relatable for a huge portion of the audience. Bring in some modern sensibilities for characters made 30s-50s.
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 11:15am

RedPanda77 wrote:Because she was never black in the comics, believe it or not Wally is the Ginger superhero to a lot of people and now they have . . . ? Not to mention that a young black male is subject to a very different socialization than what a young white male would undertake in middle America.

They can't just do a Mortal Kombat palette swap, its like making him a different person.
This is actually extremely toxic and close minded. I have a million problems with your logic here, but for the sake of brevity I'll only pick out a few to talk about:

1) Your assertion that somehow they're ruining this character by changing them from the source material. As if shitty pulp hero comics are really all that sacred to begin with, and as if anything new that gets made somehow invalidates the old stuff that you love, which it doesn't. Especially when they're entirely separate entities like the comics vs the TV shows. Especially when the only change here is race - as if the story of a black kid (enculturation and everything) is somehow less interesting or inferior to the story of a white kid.

2) Your assumption that because Iris is black, that means Wally MUST be black. As if that's how all black families must operate - 100% black. No interracial marriages, no re-marriages, no adoptions, none of that is a possibility to you because of how binary you see the world of race. Even the comics don't support this nonsense - right now in the current run of DC comics, Iris West is white and Wally is black.

3) You don't actually care about Iris West being black or her character at all, you only care about her as an accessory to another character which is being ridiculous and disrespectful to her character.

4) You're talking like ginger representation is something that's important or rare when it isn't remotely. Especially when if you really care about your red heads in your super hero comics, you already have a god-tier ginger in the form of Guy Gardner to worship.
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Re: The Flash

Postby RedPanda77 » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 12:28pm

Of your millions of possible responses, I think #1 is bullshit it does change my sacred comics- Nick Fury is black now & Green Arrow looks like CW's GA not the normal Errol Flynn version, so yeah they do change things. The level of interest doesn't change but the composition of who the character is and who he resonates with absolutely does.
Actually #2 is legit and I am embarrassed at the oversight because #3 is the obvious concern to me.
What weird is that #4 is more toxic than anything I said. You seem to think that it's okay for redheads to be the butt of the joke and having Guy "Sexual Harassment" Gardner as an ambassador for gingers in comics is not a bad thing. Fuck it's not even important at all, right?

So yeah after #4, fuck Iris right in her stupid butthole.
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Re: The Flash

Postby RedPanda77 » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 12:31pm

darfox8 wrote:Are you arguing that they can't make a character black without putting in storylines about them being black? Would that annoy you if one episode Iris comments about beauty standards or if Joe has a long sordid past with racism in the police?

They didn't make these characters black to further an agenda but just in case they did(seems like a worst case scenario for a lot of nerds) so what if they make the characters and heroes more relatable for a huge portion of the audience. Bring in some modern sensibilities for characters made 30s-50s.


Not at all, John Stewart is a great character. I was more worried about Wally West being changed but kezo corrected my logic on that one.
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 1:41pm

RedPanda77 wrote:I think #1 is bullshit it does change my sacred comics- Nick Fury is black now & Green Arrow looks like CW's GA not the normal Errol Flynn version, so yeah they do change things. The level of interest doesn't change but the composition of who the character is and who he resonates with absolutely does.
A couple issues with this one here:

Things from the TV shows influencing the future of comics usually happen because the ideas from the TV shows are GOOD ideas worth keeping. Unless you're going to start trying to convince me that characters like Harley Quinn or Batman Beyond are bad ideas. Bringing John Diggle and Felicity into the GA comics is a great idea because they're amazing characters and give GA a real supporting cast for the first time in his existence.

If changing a character from white to black (and that's honestly the only thing that's changed with them) means they don't resonate with you anymore, then your attachment to the character was very superficial/skin-deep to begin with. If you feel you can't empathize and resonate with a character because they're black now, I suggest attempting to become more of an empathetic person.

The two examples you used are actually erroneous examples of what you're talking about. Nick Fury was always going to be different from his comicbook counterparts. It makes no sense for a regular human WWII vet to still be kickin' about in this day and age; he'd be over 90. When you're changing his origins that drastically, you might as well go change other things about him too while you're at it. The core of the character though, his personality, his role, what he does, it's all the same. You can't blame the movie for those changes. And changing him to be a black dude is NBD. The other example, Green Arrow, is actually completely and 100% false and reversed. They didn't change Green Arrow's look in the comics because of the TV show. They changed it before that for the New 52. The TV show on the other hand, is directly inspired by Jeff Lemire and Andrea Sorrentino amazing N52 run on Green Arrow. Total non-issue.

RedPanda77 wrote:What weird is that #4 is more toxic than anything I said. You seem to think that it's okay for redheads to be the butt of the joke and having Guy "Sexual Harassment" Gardner as an ambassador for gingers in comics is not a bad thing. Fuck it's not even important at all, right?
Never did I ever say or think that. What I am saying is that there isn't an under representation or misrepresentation issue with gingers in comics. If anything, they're over represented considering how many there are in comics, and how small of a percentage of the population gingers actually make up (only about 2% of the world). Also, Guy Gardner is legitimately an amazing character, and there was no double meaning or sarcasm in what I said. He's easily one of my top 3 favorite DC characters of all time. Guy is the fucking best. You're going to have to inform me on this 'sexual harassment' issue because I've only really followed him in the comics for about the last decade, and sensed no such issues like that.
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Re: The Flash

Postby RedPanda77 » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 1:54pm

Guy took Ice on a date to a porno theater in the Giffen run of JLA. I love the character, but I wouldn't want my son to look up to him.
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 2:25pm

RedPanda77 wrote:Guy took Ice on a date to a porno theater in the Giffen run of JLA. I love the character, but I wouldn't want my son to look up to him.
I don't see how that's sexual harassment. Poor choice in date locales, and a total blockhead move, but yeah. Also, taking a date to a porno theater was at one time not an uncommon or weird thing to do (like back in the early 70s before a huge stigma around porno theaters began to develop).

Guy is a hot-head, but he's always following his heart and trying to do the right thing. He has authority issues, but what kid doesn't? I wouldn't have any qualms with my theoretical kids looking up to Guy Gardner. He's basically just an X-treme version Hal Jordan w/o some of Hal's shitty baggage like being Parallax.
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Re: The Flash

Postby RedPanda77 » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 6:37pm

kenzo wrote:
RedPanda77 wrote:Guy took Ice on a date to a porno theater in the Giffen run of JLA. I love the character, but I wouldn't want my son to look up to him.
I don't see how that's sexual harassment. Poor choice in date locales, and a total blockhead move, but yeah. Also, taking a date to a porno theater was at one time not an uncommon or weird thing to do (like back in the early 70s before a huge stigma around porno theaters began to develop).

Guy is a hot-head, but he's always following his heart and trying to do the right thing. He has authority issues, but what kid doesn't? I wouldn't have any qualms with my theoretical kids looking up to Guy Gardner. He's basically just an X-treme version Hal Jordan w/o some of Hal's shitty baggage like being Parallax.


Of course you don't see that, how about when Guy pinches a teenage Mary Marvel's ass just because it's there? And some couples do watch porn together, but Ice didn't know that shit was happening, she left in disgust. There are a ton of chauvinist, shitty moves that Guy has pulled, sure he makes the books fun but he has had some serious flaws.

And most comics exist on a hanging timeline otherwise all of the characters would be 70+ so Nick Fury can and did exist as a white dude 50 years after WWII, the entire JSA does.

This argument has gotten way too pedantic, Iris is a white mid-western girl, I don't know why they changed her. She is actually a better and more likable character now. Wally West is a white guy from the mid-west and because there are a ton of white mid-western guys, they have a character that they can really identify with. I've known white guys from the mid-west and they fucking act like Wally, they think and talk like him.

If Marvel decided that Mirage is Asian instead of Native American wouldn't you say that it changes her character? If they decided that John Stewart should be white now, would you just be totally okay with that?

Making these characters a different race shouldn't change anything, but in the real world, it does. Listen to Neal Adams episode on Fatman on Batman describe the black guys who teared up at John Stewart being a normal black man and not written as a cliche, like power man or black panther. The shit mattered to them, why can't it matter to me?
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 19th, 2015 @ 7:51pm

RedPanda77 wrote:Of course you don't see that, how about when Guy pinches a teenage Mary Marvel's ass just because it's there?
That's not something you disclosed previously. But that's like one data point on a really long history of a character who, from hundreds of data points I read had no such issues.

RedPanda77 wrote:...but Ice didn't know that shit was happening, she left in disgust.
I mean, again, that's just being a bonehead and having a kinda dysfunctional relationship/communications breakdown, but not necessarily sexual harassment.

RedPanda77 wrote:There are a ton of chauvinist, shitty moves that Guy has pulled, sure he makes the books fun but he has had some serious flaws.
Yeah, I know, part of the fun of his character is that he is flawed and isn't super fuckin' boring and straight laced like say John Stewart or Superman. But like, there's a difference between between kinda being a chauvinist and outright sexual harassment. Chauvinism is a state of mind, sexual harassment are very specific acts. That was a very specific charge you laid against a character that I wanted to know where that came from.

RedPanda77 wrote:And most comics exist on a hanging timeline otherwise all of the characters would be 70+ so Nick Fury can and did exist as a white dude 50 years after WWII, the entire JSA does.
But that's the thing, you can't claim that enculturation matters when it comes to race, but it doesn't matter when it comes to the time when someone is raised. You're leveling a double standard in order to excuse you letting race unfairly tinge your perspective. Whether someone was born and raised as a baby boomer versus born and raised in the Great Depression makes a huge fuckin' deal. But you're OK with those kinds of changes being made to a comic book character, but not something like race that's a social construct and isn't nearly as important as you believe for an individual person's identity. Nurture matters, but I'm too much of a believer in self-determination to say that it matters all that much. Like, I'm sorry, but that's a double standard and it's kinda racist. Not in the obvious white-hood wearing, overtly and consciously hateful kind of way that makes you a horrible person, but in the way that you're letting your subconscious biases affect things when it really shouldn't matter - something we all do to different degrees, but it's something that we can be self-conscious about and mitigate rather than turn a blind eye to and let it fester and own us.

RedPanda77 wrote:Iris is a white mid-western girl, I don't know why they changed her. She is actually a better and more likable character now.
They changed her because they wanted the show to better reflect the changing face and diversity of America instead of being stuck in the 1950s where The Flash and all of his cohorts/villains are all white. And by your own omission, this version of the character is better. Why can't any possible change in Wally end up being better too? You're railing against a change you don't know is going to happen, and you don't know if it's going to make the character worse/less enjoyable. It's absolutely irrational and you're just upset because you seem to have a kneejerk reaction against things changing.

RedPanda77 wrote:Wally West is a white guy from the mid-west and because there are a ton of white mid-western guys, they have a character that they can really identify with. I've known white guys from the mid-west and they fucking act like Wally, they think and talk like him.
Again, you're talking like white mid-western guys are somehow underrepresented or that they're stealing something precious from you, when like, fuckin' half of DC's heroes are white midwestern guys. You'll still have Barry, Superman, Green Arrow, all their cohorts, and a bunch of other guys.

RedPanda77 wrote:If Marvel decided that Mirage is Asian instead of Native American wouldn't you say that it changes her character? If they decided that John Stewart should be white now, would you just be totally okay with that?
But see, this is false equivocation, because the situations are entirely different. Over-represented majority is turned into a minority character, versus a minority character turned into a different minority character. It's bad logic.

RedPanda77 wrote:Making these characters a different race shouldn't change anything, but in the real world, it does. Listen to Neal Adams episode on Fatman on Batman describe the black guys who teared up at John Stewart being a normal black man and not written as a cliche, like power man or black panther. The shit mattered to them, why can't it matter to me?
It matters to them because not just comics, but all of media, was completely devoid of any black characters like John Stewart. If you take away John Stewart, there was literally nobody else to fill the void. Meanwhile, please tell me more about how the white population is being underserved and underrepresented in comics, and how if you're taking away Wally's whiteness/gingerness, there's nobody else in comics to fill that void. I don't know you, but the way it sounds, I don't know if you can appreciate growing up in a world where everywhere you look, on every TV channel, in every comic book, on every movie screen, there's nobody that looks like you. It sends horrible messages to kids and even adults that somehow you and people who look like you aren't worth even existing or mentioning. That's a very different thing from your one of millions white character getting an ethnic makeover.

It always kinda sucks when your favorite characters get changed from the versions that you grew to like and became accustomed to. But it happens ALL THE TIME. Sometimes it's lame, sometimes it isn't. But deciding ahead of time that it's going to be bad, just because the thing that changed is their race, is ridiculous, closed minded, and again a little racist. If it turns out to be a bad change and the character sucks, then let's fuckin' flame on The Flash together. But you've already gotten a closed mind to it before knowing the first thing; wait a little to judge please before getting up in arms about it.
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Re: The Flash

Postby RedPanda77 » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 9:12am

You're calling me a close minded racist for asking a question and in the same sentence you're telling me to wait before I judge someone/something. Take your own advice.
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 11:36am

RedPanda77 wrote:You're calling me a... racist
To reiterate some stuff you clearly looked over or didn't understand. There's a difference between being A racist and being racist. One does not mean the other. It's like someone saying "you're an idiot" and "you're being an idiot". Being a racist is a noun, and it implies that is kind of your defining feature and that the degree of your racism is unforgivably awful. Being racist is an adjective, a state of mind, that has varying degrees and is something you can change with self-awareness and determination. You can have racist tendencies and not necessarily be a racist or a bad person (because to be perfectly honest, we all have racist tendencies). I went to great lengths to try and explain this and explain that I didn't meant it in an insulting way to you because I know people don't handle being told that they're being racist very well and it tends to shut down conversation.

You were undeniably displaying racist tendencies. That doesn't make you A racist. But it was problematic and deserved to be discussed in a productive/constructive manner. Whether or not it was actually productive/constructive is another matter because I'm not the most eloquent or agreeable person in the world, but I tried. I tried to tip toe around saying it overtly and tried to make you come to the realization without saying it bluntly either, because again, once you start throwing that word around people tend to begin to just shut down their brain rather than continue trying to engage in amicable discourse. But you weren't quite picking up on things so I had to be a little more blunt. Again, this all isn't meant to be said in insult or jest here, or to insinuate you're a bad person, but it's something that I felt needed discussing here because it's the core of my issue here. You were judging something you really knew nothing about, based on your preconceived notions of race, and that was wrong.
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Re: The Flash

Postby CrossXhunteR » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:00pm

So, without using the words minority, majority, or representation, explain why it is okay to change a white character to a different race, but not a non-white to white?
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:12pm

CrossXhunteR wrote:So, without using the words minority, majority, or representation, explain why it is okay to change a white character to a different race, but not a non-white to white?
I love you Cross, but I don't like wasting a bunch of time to indulge your playing devil's advocate. You're asking me to "Without important context quintessential to this topic, please explain this topic." Once you're off of work, we can play Taboo over mumble instead of dota. :lol:

You're stumbling into the ridiculous realm actual racists love to play in. "We made the minorities equal on paper, so now they're equal and there's no more racism! If you keep bring up race, you're the racists!"
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Re: The Flash

Postby CrossXhunteR » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:25pm

I'm just wondering why one is allowed to be offensive and the other isn't.
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Re: The Flash

Postby darfox8 » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:32pm

Making black characters white isn't offensive, imo. It's just work in the wrong direction. Sure making white characters non-white isn't the only way, you can introduce brand new black characters. I think that's fun and noble. But making new characters stick in comics is very hard, white or black. Making a new black character stick is extremely hard, imo.

All the big meaningful characters have been around for decades. I don't mean 1 or 2, I mean 4-5 decades. They will always be evergreen. To say that these can't be non-white ghettoizes any non-white character.
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Re: The Flash

Postby CrossXhunteR » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:36pm

I understood all of that but the last sentence.
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Re: The Flash

Postby dakazu » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:40pm

Maybe you knuckleheads should realize that they probably made Iris black because they got the super talented Jesse L.Martin to play her father Joe West.
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Re: The Flash

Postby darfox8 » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:43pm

CrossXhunteR wrote:I understood all of that but the last sentence.


Many people suggest to introduce new characters into comics instead of changing the race of established characters. That will insure that every big comic book character will be white and only small heroes with short runs are black.

All the big characters were created in another time. A time where all white cast made sense. That doesn't make sense now.
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Re: The Flash

Postby darfox8 » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:44pm

dakazu wrote:Maybe you knuckleheads should realize that they probably made Iris black because they got the super talented Jesse L.Martin to play her father Joe West.

Same difference. People were cutting themselves when they found out these two people were black.
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:49pm

For the record, Hollywood makes non-white characters white all the time. Every time Hollywood adapts some comic or film or book from another country and gives recognizable Hollywood stars top billing, nobody really blinks an eye. I don't exactly find it offensive on an individual basis. Tom Cruize does a great job acting in Edge of Tomorrow - the adaptation/whitewashing of a Japanese novel. But when you add everything together it demonstrates a trend that's problematic if you care about having diverse representation in your shit and having the media you consume reflect the ethnic realities of the world around you. (edit: Which is why the Bechdel test is meant to only apply towards examining a broad collection of data rather than a single data point of an individual work. It's NBD if a single movie fails the Bechdel Test, but if the entire movie industry fails it as a whole, we have a problem.) And to Hollywood's credit, it increasingly does care about diversity. Which is why you see Iris West now being played by a black woman. But overall we've still got a long way to go. Making a non-minority character into a minority character serves a purpose of being inclusive and broadening diversity. Making a minority character a non-minority serves very little purpose other than to placate a majority that lacks the pathos to connect/empathize with someone who doesn't look like them.
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Re: The Flash

Postby LiQuid » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:53pm

They should make Black Panther white when they bring him to the Avengers movies. I would literally pay United States currency to see that in a cinema.
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Re: The Flash

Postby CrossXhunteR » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 12:59pm

I had the same thought earlier because I am a mean-spirited person.

Was Tom Cruise meant to be the same character in Edge of Tomorrow as in the books, or was there a name/location change?
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 1:30pm

It's just a straight up white-washing of everything. Like they used to do with spaghetti westerns. Which again, serves the purpose of making the film more relateable to the majority audience that is unable/unwilling to empathize/connect with a different/foreign setting/cast. Which is great for making money, but is regrettable for the sake of diversity and enlightenment.

LiQuid wrote:They should make Black Panther white when they bring him to the Avengers movies. I would literally pay United States currency to see that in a cinema.
Academically it would be a fascinating thing to observe. If only to see the uproar of otherwise disinterested parties who don't know the first thing about comics. In my heart of heart I don't know if I would really care much. Especially since Black Panther is a shitty character, it wouldn't be the same kind of loss as say, if you white-washed Static Shock or Storm. Why isn't he just called Panther, BTW?
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Re: The Flash

Postby CrossXhunteR » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 1:33pm

But in that case, it is not the same character, but a new, white, character. If Tom Cruise was playing a dude named Keiji Kiriya, then it would be weird, but he wasn't, so it's not.
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 1:35pm

Cross pls
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Re: The Flash

Postby CrossXhunteR » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 1:43pm

By the way, I don't want to talk about this shit when I get home.
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Re: The Flash

Postby RedPanda77 » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 2:33pm

kenzo wrote:
RedPanda77 wrote:You're calling me a... racist
To reiterate some stuff you clearly looked over or didn't understand. There's a difference between being A racist and being racist. One does not mean the other. It's like someone saying "you're an idiot" and "you're being an idiot". Being a racist is a noun, and it implies that is kind of your defining feature and that the degree of your racism is unforgivably awful. Being racist is an adjective, a state of mind, that has varying degrees and is something you can change with self-awareness and determination. You can have racist tendencies and not necessarily be a racist or a bad person (because to be perfectly honest, we all have racist tendencies). I went to great lengths to try and explain this and explain that I didn't meant it in an insulting way to you because I know people don't handle being told that they're being racist very well and it tends to shut down conversation.

You were undeniably displaying racist tendencies. That doesn't make you A racist. But it was problematic and deserved to be discussed in a productive/constructive manner. Whether or not it was actually productive/constructive is another matter because I'm not the most eloquent or agreeable person in the world, but I tried. I tried to tip toe around saying it overtly and tried to make you come to the realization without saying it bluntly either, because again, once you start throwing that word around people tend to begin to just shut down their brain rather than continue trying to engage in amicable discourse. But you weren't quite picking up on things so I had to be a little more blunt. Again, this all isn't meant to be said in insult or jest here, or to insinuate you're a bad person, but it's something that I felt needed discussing here because it's the core of my issue here. You were judging something you really knew nothing about, based on your preconceived notions of race, and that was wrong.


Again more pedantic, semantic bullshit.

You had a knee jerk reaction to me saying, why did they make Iris black. Then you proceeded to try and assassinate my character saying that the explanation you demanded was ignorant and toxic. You tip toe like a fucking elephant, people lose their livelihoods and their social standings because of accusations like this and it makes it so no one can even talk about race without immediately being put on trial by small minded fake liberal assholes who only want people to think that they authorities when they really are just dictators looking to make an example out of someone.

I understand what you're saying, I have a major in Comm studies and Journalism, I read Peggy McIntosh. But you solicited the explanation, then pointed the finger and now you're giving this condescending lecture about semantics after your said damage has been done.

Go fuck yourself.
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Re: The Flash

Postby kenzo » Mar 20th, 2015 @ 3:14pm

RedPanda77 wrote:Again more pedantic, semantic bullshit.
I love and hate this dismissal of a person's argument. I love it for how laughably bad it is, I hate that it's so common. Semantics are important, buddy. It makes a big difference in what you're saying. Ask anyone who is ethnically ambiguous if semantics are important when people ask them "Where are you from?" Your choice in words makes a big difference. I've already outlined how that's the case but you're ignoring it because again, you've decided to shut down discourse.

RedPanda77 wrote:You had a knee jerk reaction to me saying, why did they make Iris black. Then you proceeded to try and assassinate my character saying that the explanation you demanded was ignorant and toxic.
You gave an explanation, and I tired to engage that explanation and your ideas without relating that back to you or judging you and your character based on those ideas. There's been no 'accusations', and I very intentionally set out to not 'assassinate your character' and engage in logical fallacies like attacking your character instead trying to point out the lack of merits in your opinions as you expressed them. If I wanted to, I could have gone at things in a very different direction. I made no accusations against your character, just asserted that an idea you had was one I found problematic and I wanted to engage you on that idea in a constructive manner rather than berate you for it. If you misunderstood my intent or tone here, I apologize. Like I've said before, I'm not the most eloquent of people. But I don't apologize for the substance of my arguments.

RedPanda77 wrote:You tip toe like a fucking elephant, people lose their livelihoods and their social standings because of accusations like this and it makes it so no one can even talk about race without immediately being put on trial by small minded fake liberal assholes who only want people to think that they authorities when they really are just dictators looking to make an example out of someone.
It sounds to me like you're projecting some issues here and some past experiences or insecurities onto this argument/myself. I'm not trying to put you on trial or get you to lose your job, man. I wouldn't even be bothering with this discussion if I didn't like/respect you, and thought you were rational enough to talk about these issues in a constructive manner. Maybe I was wrong about that, I still like to think I'm not though. And I probably overstepped my boundaries with regards to familiarity and casualness with which I was addressing you, for that I apologize for.
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